I guess I'll start. I'm reading Honky by Dalton Conley. It's the story of a white boy growing up in the housing projects of NYC in the 70's/80's & the ways in which his whiteness & privilege are revealed to him. It has definitely captured my attention since the author & I were born in the same year, 1969. Although we share the same generation, our childhood experiences are so very different. Mine come from living in the suburbs of Denver whereas Conley's life experiences are the stories made for TV movies are about. I can find common ground in being a Happy Days fanatic.
I've always taken getting a good education for granted. My experiences as a child led me to believe that everyone liked their teachers & that their teachers were good, effective teachers. I never moved throughout my K-12 education so I always knew where I would be going to school & who my teachers would be. Being part of the racial majority, I didn't think much about the few kids in our school that had darker colored skin. In Honkey, Conley's skin color put him in the minority in the public housing project in which the majority of people were African American and Puerto Rican. As Conley reflects on going to the neighborhood school, PS4, he sees that his whiteness allowed him some privileges other students did not have. For example, the African American teacher would rap students on the knuckles with a ruler for misbehaving, but Conley, no matter how much he tried to get in trouble, never got the ruler treatment. This caused him to develop a nervous tick by being singled out as different. When his mother met with the principal to find out what was happening, she was told Dalton wasn't hit because he was white.
The next year, Conley's mom worked the school system & was able to place Dalton in a "better" school in Greenwich Village, PS41. In a school of mostly white children, Conley learns the rules of having social class.
I chose the book Women's Ways of Knowing, mostly because it was available at the library while I was there. WWK was written in 1969 by Mary Field Belenky, Blythe Clinchy, Nancy Rule Goldberger, and Jill Mattuck Tarule. The human development theories of Carol Gilligan and William Perry, as many of us studied in 624 last semester, "inspired and informed" this study. WWK reports on five ways of knowing for women based on interviews with 135 women from several colleges and social service agencies. Although not intended for the study originally, sexual harassment and abuse became recurring themes in these women's pasts; therefore, the authors, midstream, adapted their interviews to include survey questions to follow this theme.
The first way of knowing, according to Belenky, et al., is "silence." These "silent" subjects were brought up in families who were cut off from the broader community; at least one parent was violent; the other compliant/silent. As children, these women rarely had friends or played. Play, as the authors point out, develops the ability to form thoughts, gives the opportunity to make meaning, make decisions, and leads to the development of language skills. Women in this "silent" category of knowing do not see themselves as learners at all; they are unaware of the power of words for transmitting knowledge.
The second theory is "received knowers." These women see themselves as competent learners via the ability to absorb & store truth from others, as long as they don't have to reflect on their on ideas or think relativistically. They don't see themselves as constructors of knowledge. They believe knowledge is constructed in books and by researchers, but don’t see that the experts construct their own knowledge. They assume that answers are either right or wrong, good or bad, true/false, black/white; there is no gradation of truth. The authors talk of the "authority-right-we" concept. The women of the "received knowers" category did not align themselves with the "we" of authority; they were more likely to see authority as "they." Received knowers take in facts but do not analyze or transform those fact to make meaning for themselves. The received knowers in this study were devoted to the care and empowerment of others while they, themselves, remained selfless; they were comfortable with advancing themselves as long as it also meant they helped others.
Those are the first two of five ways of knowing that these authors found in their interviews. So far the book is fascinating.
Does anyone feel like they can relate to these women's ways of knowing? I think the stages also feel like stages in the learning process or the steps people go through in developing their skills on how to learn.
OK so this book is really good & swim meets can be really long.
One thing that is standing out to me is the realization that all kids & adults go through the same issues of discovering their identity & fitting in with peer groups. Dalton has a hard time bringing a new friend from "the Village" to the projects. He's not embarrassed about his house but afraid his old friends will see the new white boy who's a little nerdy & Dalton will lose his credibility with the old friends. He also struggles with living in two worlds - that of a white, middle class school boy & the white kid living in the projects. He also struggles with being the city kid on vacation in rural Pennsylvania. Dalton also struggles to keep up with the kids in "the Village" who receive $10 allowances. He gets a job to make the money he wants to buy candy & comic books & is feeling good about himself until he finds out the kids are now getting a $20 allowance. He realizes he'll always have more than some but never enough to get ahead of others.
This book reflects universal themes of race & class. These are ideas I can relate to even though my upbringing was so very different from Dalton's.
I can relate to these women's ways of knowing. My progression through these stages has come later in my life, starting at approximately 40 years. However, some women I know went through the stages in adolescence; others, in their 20s and 30s; and still others, never went through the progression at all. That is the finding of Belenky, et al.: these states progressive.
The authors report that men more easily take on the idea of multiple truths and their inner power - as a matter of fact, men "wrest" power away from other authority figures. On the other hand, women are fearful of losing connection with the "other" if they show their true Self.
I, too, DeeDee, would like to know if other women relate and if the men relate as well to these stages. But I can truly follow my own path, and it has nothing to do with academics (which is something Belenky et al also discuss).
DeeDee, Honky was recommended to me by a black professor on-campus. When I read it, I thought it would be great to add to this list. It really made me think about the different environments that we grow up and learn in. It can be so different depending on where we live and the culture we live in.
I myself grew up in as part of the majority in my public schooling. Working on the CSU campus, I have taught and worked along side people from all over the world. Understanding their experiences in an unfamiliar setting really helps me be compassionate.
I am really enjoying how you are pulling information from WWK. I have found that as one moves up the ranks in higher education that you really see the difference in power between men and women and how they 'handle it'. What is interesting is observing women who have taken on what I will call the male norms. Often they are frowned upon by both male and female colleagues.
It is amazing how much this book chronicles my own path. And I thought that I have been living outside the box for the last ten year. I had no idea I was a poster child for predictability!
it's always interesting to have our perceptions challenged or highlighted. i guess education will always be a p/o of every experience when some type of learning takes place (whether miseducation or not). dee dee's book sounds like the classic story: black like me, manchild in the promised land, soul on ice (eldredge cleaver), the souls of black folk (dubois), ain't i a woman (sojourner truth), finding forester, not to mention the pollock in the italian block in nyc, or the christian in palestine, or the girl with the pathological disorder that causes her to studder and not be able to get a job but she has an intellect that can outpace any peer.
"Learning to Listen. Learning to Teach. The Power of Dialogue in Educating Adults" by Jane Vella
Vella adheres to a teaching philosophy she calls "quantum thinking," based on some of the principles of quantum physics. Though not revolutionary or new, this philosophy seems to adhere to the concept that learning, thinking, and teaching are holistic pursuits-- that they are synergistic and dependent on others, oneself, and the environment around us.
The book provides a series of stories throughout Vella's professional life that demonstrate ways in which dialoguing with students and "stakeholders" has proved a primary learning and teaching strategy across cultures, religions, subject areas, and religions, among others. Relationships built between teacher and student and authentic dialogue produce effective learning.
The most appealing aspect of this book to me is Vella's experience as a trainer. She traveled all over the world and taught many content areas with which she was not familiar. Most of her function is as a guide who teaches others how to find the knowledge they need. She facilitates this process through dialogue, inquiry, and her own personal research. She mostly trains others who will train others in a particular content area. Perhaps the subject in which she is a master is relationships, communication, or teaching. She uses this knowledge to effectively enter foreign environments, assess the learning needs, nurture relationships to students, design learning strategies, and lead the students in their own learning. Because I don't feel I am a master at any one subject area, I am encouraged that I should still be able to successfully teach others how to lead/instruct others and themselves. Her stories seem to highlight that knowing how to communicate well with others is really the master craft of a teacher. This is something in which I can remain interested and to which I can aspire.
I appreciated Vella's statement pointing out how teachers often try to teach alternative methods of teaching but only use a lecture/monologue approach when they teach it: "This is one of the most compelling aspects of dialogue education. You must use the principles and practices to teach the principles and practices, or else you do not teach them accountably." This, I think will continue to be a challenge for me as I teach b/c it seems to take more creativity and planning. I also consider it ironic that Vella's recommendation doesn't happen more often.
The next phase in Women's Ways of Lnowing, according to Blenkey, et al., is "Subjective Knowers." Their truth is based on intuition; i.e., a truth that is felt and not actively constructed. They "just know." This stage of knowing is the first time that subjective truth appears in the interviewees. Truth becomes a personal and private matter here.
These women do not impose on others their beliefs, don't try to resolve disagreements by pushing their way of thinking on others. If there comes a situation where experience and/or inner voice is not present, the subjective knower tries "a little bit of everything" until something comes up that works for her (p. 70). This group of women still see men as the authorities and they distrust rational processes (some become anti-male), feeling that the intuition is safer. Some women holding these beliefs will stay here the rest of their lives; however, others who return to education will move on to the more logical/objective ways of knowing.
More than 1/2 of the interviewees had recently undergone a change of relationships; they rejected responsibilities and left intolerable situations -- without much forethought. Many identify themselves in opposition to others. They continue to lack a secure self-concept and may even draw from past self-concept and external judgments/labels.
Where the received knowers (previously discussed) hold to the either/or path to truth, subjective knowers are now able to listen to, consider, and try to understand others' points of view before coming to their own opinion, which they can now substantiate.
Overall, subjective knowers are positive and forward-looking with an "inner fire" (p. 83).
I wonder if man's or child's ways of knowing is any different but perhaps less investigated. Men, esp in our American culture, are given less permission to "know" in this way...even if it is something that feels right to them.
Ethical Issues in Adult Education I chose this book mainly because I can relate to many of the issues discussed. This book is a compilation by several different authors. The books discusses different issues, although typically does not offer clear cut solutions. This seems reasonable when considering that each situation has its own particular circumstances. For example, every semester I struggle with the issue of late and incomplete homework, or missed exams. My promgram can be considered a gateway for students to careers, so a failing grade can directly affect their job prospects. Do I give a D instead of an F just to try to help students succeed in a career? The decisions we make as instructors have ramifications in many different directions, but trying to be aware is my first approach. John M
Hi Kay and all- I have a comment on the Women's Ways of Knowing" book. I have to say, I have difficulties with the approach. I understand the points made, but to me the steps involved relate to perspectives versus "truth". (I put truth in quotes, because the use of the term to me is another issue entirely.) It seems to me that the perspective may and does change, but what the knowledge ACTUALLY is remains the same. The truth term is difficult for me to grasp as well, is it objective and knowable, subjective and knowable, or objective or subjective and just not knowable? To me, these ideas (and some of the ideas we covered in Don's class last spring) make some epistmological leaps that I feel are pretty major. I am interested in hearing (is that the proper term on a blog?) what others have to say about this. John M
Hello, I am reading Three Cups of tea, by Greg Mortenson and David Oliver Relin. This is a great read and I suggest we all read it at some point. It's topics are very relivant for the issures of today's world issues.
All, It seems that women's ways of knowing is about a human's pursuit of knowing him or herself, but that this study focused on women. Is that true, Kay? Can a non-woman go through this same process? Is this process only accessible if a person has experienced some level of oppression? It seems I know some very wise, insightful and intuitive white males...so, it makes me wonder.
The subject or reality of love is known, felt, and lived yet scholars, poets, artists, scientists have been baffled for years to define it. Truth is there but, as John might consider, the individual perspective defines it...yet it is still a wonderful enigma. Love is. You are. How do the 2 intersect? Is that truth? Is that "knowing?" And, is a woman more apt to "know" it b/c she's a woman?
Wow, you even have a picture up of yourself! So much for being behind the times in the land of computers and cyberspace. Good job getting on this blog!
Three cups of tea starts out with Greg Mortenson attempting to climb the world second largest mountain on earth, K2 (second only to Mount Everest). Mortenson has set this goal for himself because he wishes to set his late sisters necklace at the summit to fulfill a promise that he made to her. Because of one mishap after another he is unable to reach this goal but in the process while he is in the Pakistan region he sees how desperately the children of this country are in need of good schools.
Mortenson decides that he wants to build a school for the children in Pakistan now in his sister’s memory. He has no idea how to go about doing this so he simply starts by making contacts. Mortenson was fortunate to find people in this country that shared his vision and were willing to help him in his quest. Just as in our class studies, Greg recognized a need for something and started to execute steps in order to make the goal a reality. Mortenson began by finding the supplies that would be necessary to resurrect a building. He then realized that the people of this country had no money to pay for this school and that if he felt that it was important to have the school built he would need to find the funds to build it himself. Mortenson himself was not a wealthy man and so he set forth to find anyone who would be willing to help fund this school.
Greg Mortenson was lucky to meet all of the right people and shortly after he started his quest to find money to build the school he was able to collect just the right amount of money to build the school. As he returned to Pakistan with the supplies to build the school he began to run into more and more hurdles. First problem he encountered was that the location for the school was in a remote village and there was no way for him to get the supplies across a major river. The people of this country were expecting him to bring money and supplies to also build a bridge. This set the progress back in a big way because now Mortenson felt that in order to build the school that he had worked so hard on researching and raising money for the supplies he now needed to build a bridge. In the mean time the people were so excited to get their school and did not understand why this American could not deliver his promise. Mortenson needed to return to the states and leave all of his supplies behind.
Once he was back in the United States, Mortenson continued with speaking engagements at various locations trying to get anyone to listen to his vision. At numerous engagements only a handful of people showed up to listen to him and Mortenson was not sure that he would be able to deliver the school to the children of Pakistan. Through more fortunate connections, Greg was able to raise more money and make arrangements to have the appropriate supplies delivered to his school site. He once again continued to the region. By this time, so many people had heard about the American that had come to build a school and everyone wanted to be a part of it!
Mortenson returned to the area and his building supplies were nowhere to be found! Another party was holding the supplies and more or less told Greg that he could have them as soon as he promised to build a school for them. Yet another obstacle to overcome to build his school!
Three Cups of Tea Persistence and patience are what Mortenson seems to have an overflowing cup of. I think adults in education need the same gifts. Many adults wait patiently to return to school or find the right program. When they get there many obstacles get in their way.
Learning to Listen. Learning to Teach. To me it seems as if Vella has it right - communication is the key to teaching and learning. The teacher has to be able to communicate ideas and to listen to student's needs; students need to be able to express their needs and ideas as well as really listen to the teacher and peers.
A defining moment of the ideas of class, race, & privilege are found in an accidental fire set by Dalton. While in junior high, Dalton was playing at his friend, Raphael's apartment. The two boys were flinging matches at each other & putting them out with a squirt bottle. One match was flung at a bed & unfortunately not put out. Much damage ensued but no blame was place on either boy. Conley writes, "the fire taught me one of the most subtle but powerful privileges of middle-class status: the chance to work problems out informally, without the interference of the authorities (i.e. police). Poor minorities get no such allowances...Raphael's family represented the right class and I the right race."
Later in the chapter, Dalton ties this fire incident to another friend who was busted in a drug raid and received the mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years. "I, by contrast, learned enough of a lesson from the fire itself."
So what can we as educators take away from this scenario? For me, it demonstrates how certain classes & races receive privileges that they don't even realize until an incident is put in context with other incidents. For students who attend our classes, they are already experiencing privilege just by being there. Many of them may not recognize it. Others who have struggled to overcome stereotypes & biases to get into classes feel honored to be there. I believe their achievement needs to be recognized.
John, I love your comments. Good question: perspectives or truth? And I agree with Alyson..."epistmological leaps?" Nice!
Belenky, et al., set out the five ways (positions) of knowing as the perspectives from which the 135 women subjects perceive the locus of "truth" and view the holders of knowledge, authority, and power as outside themselves. For the purposes of demonstrating their point, the authors are distinguishing the "truth" as something that is "out there somewhere," that is elusive to women, something that is separate from what they know. Silent knowers and received knowers, I think, would agree that they themselves may have a "perspective" on issues, but it is confused, fuzzy, even wrong in their minds. But the "truth" is something the authorities/experts hold as a secret and is beyond the grasp of most of these women. Experts/authorities who are worth their salt may recognize that their "truth" is truly their "perspective"; but for women, often the experts' perspective is what they (the women) perceive as the "truth."
Karen brought up the point of power. Without holding the "truth" about something -- only a flawed and fuzzy perspective -- women give up their power to men in the workforce, in academe, and in the home. Actually, I was told once that you cannot give up something you don't know you have, so I will refine my words there...Women hold no power when they think the "truth" is somewhere outside of themselves.
Finding other women in power who held the "truth" was unusual in the mid-80s when the book was written (still prevalent, but maybe to a lesser extent today -- thank you, Karen!); so women had no female role model who held the "truth" to even believe there was any hope of holding this "truth" some day for themselves.
John, I would be interested in knowing if these ways of learning parallel your ways as a man at all. I just finished the book and will be posting the other three ways (I think that's where I am on the blog) of knowing later today.
So I have blogged about silent knowers, received knowers, and subjective knowers. The next ways of knowing are "procedural" and "constructed."
Procedural knowers, for the first time, accept that there are many origins of knowledge. They are now able to construct a way to consider these sources. They concentrate on this structure/methodology to assess the "truth."
This position of knowing stems from an awakening (sometimes rude awakening in the form of drama/trauma) that the subjective knower ("I just know!") could be faulty. The woman reverts to confusion as to where the "truth" really lies: internally or externally. This return to confusion places the knower in the position of wanting to understand the authorities'/experts'/mom's/dad's knowing and integrating it with now a more logical approach to their own knowing, again using a methodology to consider both sides of the issue.
Within this procedural knowing, the authors see a breakdown of "separate knowers" and "connected knowers." Separate knowers (SKs) remain autonomous, experiencing relationships as a "reciprocity" (this is often fathers); whereas, connected knowers (CKs) experience relationships as a "response to others in their terms" (often mother).
SKs as teachers bring to a group their "fully developed ideas" and hope to "sell it"; CK teachers seek to understand others' ideas. SK teachers are more like the traditional educators: along with selling ideas, they suppress the self and take an impersonal stance toward the object; they remove the self and personal feelings. CK teachers care and emphasize feelings within themselves.
Lastly, constructed knowers integrate the voice of reason AND intuition AND expertise of others; theories are viewed as educated guesses. Constructed knowers are not upset by ambiguity, conflict, and contradiction, but welcome them. This position of knowing is a connection, an opening, of the heart and mind. Connected knowers have the capacity to feel related to another person regardless of a difference of position.
In Part II of the book, the authors focus on the familial and educational backgrounds of these various ways of knowing (both negative and positive). So as not to be redundant of my previous posts, I will summarize what TO DO (as opposed to what not to do) to raise/teach a constructed/connected-knower girl:
Girls as constructed/connected knowers have mothers who have voices in their own lives; admire fathers who listen and mothers who speak up (often reality is vice versa). Mothers of these girls hear, respect, trust, and value their daughters on their (the daughters') own terms. Connected teaching involves helping girls to know that they know something already; that there is something good inside of them. (Being doubted is often found as debilitating in girls.)
As opposed to Freire's "banking theory" (deposits of facts by teachers/withdrawals, by students), connected teachers are like midwives (maternal): they help students give birth to their own ideas; they receive and accept the students' feelings toward the subject matter without imposing their own (the teachers') views, opinions, etc. The connected or midwife teacher tries to connect personally with each student; i.e., give all their attention to each student in the moment without feeling they have to make long-term relationships.
On a personal note, I truly relate to this book. Since arriving at CSU last August, I have seen this connected teacher theory in action; i.e., respected for my opinions and interpretations. Thank you, Karen and Don!
Eventually, Mortenson started construction on the bridge and then the school. He also started planning for more schools around the area. His popularity erupted and as he traveled back and forth from Pakistan and the US he gained more and more followers and people who believed in his work. He would hold various speaking engagements and they sold out.
Mortenson’s personal life and relationships were also tattered in this whole process. At one point Greg was held hostage and was uncertain why the captors wanted him. As it turned out it was a big mix up of mistaken identity. This was not an easy task; he started this whole process in 1993 and was even stuck in Pakistan when 9/11 happened. Everyone was very scared for Greg during 9/11 but he said that he was probably in the safest place at that time. It was very hard for him to eventually get back to the US but he did.
This story was very inspirational because I too have a vision and am afraid to take that first step because I don’t want to fail. Mortenson’s story is a great example that it is not easy (if it was everyone would be doing it) but through hard work and perseverance anyone is capable of starting a school or doing whatever they wish too. Greg Mortenson had no idea how to start a school for children in a foreign country but he went out on a limb and created dozens of schools for hundreds of eager boys and especially girls who were hungry to learn! This was a great book and I give it two thumbs up!!!!
Three Cups of Tea: Yea! for Mortenson holding on to his passion through adversity -- even threats. In my personal experience, passion moves an energy in this life to help us succeed in what we envision; we are provided that which we need to accomplish the task. The challenge is to keep the passion, keep the vision, inspite of trials, until our passion comes to fruition. Mortenson is, indeed, a special man.
Honkey: I took a very intense, even confrontational, race relations class in my undergrad program. I learned so much. Among other things: how predominately African-American schools had, in the not so distant past, textbooks often 20, 30 (perhaps more) years outdated; how schools were understaffed with mediocre/poor teachers; how AA standardized test scores were so much lower than predominately Caucasian schools. Of course, throughout time, in the white community, low AA test scores were perceived as a characteristic of the AA race as a whole. Is there any wonder test scores may have been lower if the materials/resources/teachers were so deficient???
I grew up in the East St. Louis, IL area at a time when race riots were common. Many of the AA students in this 2000 or 2001 undergrad class (several generations after the race riots) continued to be outwardly angry, resentful, and bitter. I don't know how these students left the class, but I left a changed person. I went in perceiving that all (yes all) AAs were underprivileged and poor; I came out knowing that many, although still oppressed by white society, had more privileges and advantages as young children than did I; i.e., children's books in the home, library cards, parents still in a loving marital relationship, etc. I mention this simply to point out the assumptions and perceptions that we hold. I had thought that just because they were black and I was white that I had more "stuff," more privilege, more advantage. I learned that our perceptions are a result of our filters, how we were treated, how the world responded to us. Although I may not have been as privileged, I was perceived --and therefore, behaved -- as if.
I remember as a very young child driving to my grandmother's in East St. Louis, which at that time was beginning to change from a predominately white to a predominately black community. I remember signs on restaurant doors, restrooms, and drinking fountains proclaiming "whites only" or "no Negroes/colored allowed." I remember thinking: Why? But the adults explained, that's just the way it is (or words to that effect) and I accepted it (I was a "silent" knower back then!).
I think (and hope) that society has come a long way from those days...but I am not AA and I can no longer presume I know their experience.
I think I digressed... Both these books sound great. I hope I have the opportunity to read them some day.
Lindsay, I appreciated your comment about the need 4 perseverance and hard work. It seems that if you or I want to do what is on our hearts and minds, we may have to think like an entrepreneur or social activist...be willing to build a school/thought/paradigm/structure/course/theory and battle obstacles. Hmmm...don't know that I have it in me...or, better whether I feel like digging those wells.
Kay,
Your midwife comment made me think of Jay's project a couple of semester's ago where he saw himself as a midwife (as his teaching philosophy). Since he is white and a male, can he be the same kind of "knower" your book talks about?
The book I am reading is The Education of Hyman Kaplan, by Leonard Ross. It is the accounts of an immigrant working towards acquiring citizenship within the U.S. and the instructors challenges with this student. Mr. Kaplan is a very enthusiastic learner, but he makes Mr. Parkhill question his years of instructing individuals in this area of learning. -Lisa
WWK - the question was asked if men's ways of knowing have been studied in the same way? I had to think about this before responding. There have been many studies completed about men, male leaders, male relationships, male forms of communication, etc. I suspect there have even been some that have looked at it from the same perspective as WWK. The challenge is that woman have not historically been in the roles that men have - so men have been studied so much more then women have.
I hesitate to even mention the book "Venus and Mars" I read it and hated it - because I thought it was way to cliche and stereotypical. I was very dissapointed but also not people who raved about it.
There are dozens of studies about how men and woman communicate differently and how to overcome those barriers.
WWK is a seminole book in the field, the first well known study on this topic - and why we (and almost everyone studying higher education) reads it at some point : )
I would like to comment on the “Honky by Dalton Conley.” I think this sound’s like a fascinating book. I grew up here in Fort Collins, and subsequently was in the racial majority my whole life. Sharing a cubical with an African American woman in Washington D.C. made me realize that I had no idea what it was like to be a minority. Since that realization, I find any autobiographical novels that deal with race relations to be fascinating. Reading books like this helps you begin to develop a perspective unlike the one you grew up with. I have a few questions: Was the book pro-classism or anti-classism? Was his experience as a white minatory helpful later in life? Was the book more about race or social class, or were the two concepts inseparable?
Response to Wendy's questions: I don't feel the book had a strong view pro or anti-classism. If anything it tended to be more anti pointing out times when Conley received privileges either he didn't deserve or that he felt everyone deserved. Also, I believe Conley views race & social class as separate but intertwined. Both play a role in prejudice, privilege, & racism.
In the last chapter of the book, Conley relates his experiences of going to college at UC-Berkley. He left NYC to search for something different. In Berkley he found himself in the majority, which surprised him & felt uncomfortable for him. He also found privilege, classism, racism, etc. Conley closes the book saying how putting all his experiences together clarifies his life for him yet at the same time leaves him with many questions.
Lindsey, I enjoyed reading your comments about this book. I have put it on my reading list. I am impressed with Mortenson's perseverance and patience. He believed everything would work out to build schools & kept moving in that direction. It's a great lesson to learn, follow, & share with others.
DeeDee, Mr. Kaplan is extremely enthralled with trying to learn the language, but he continuously puts words and contexts into his own meanings. Mr. Parkhill is always encouraged by his students enthusiasm, but it gets quickly dispelled when Mr. Kaplan does not seem to learn from his mistakes.
WWK- To me the perspective seems to be one of who holds power, or maybe control would be a better term. Obviously I can not comment firsthand about the perspective of women, but as far as how I relate to Kay's comments about the book, I think that they would be at least somewhat familiar to anyone who has been in a situation that is ultimately controlled by someone else. This could be teacher/student, journeyman/apprentice, parent/child, etc. Now the historical suppression of women (and possibly current in some cases) may be a bit more serious, but what I get from Kay's description of stages is self-empowerment. The common theme that I see not just from WWK but also from Dee Dee's book and Lisa's book is empowerment through education. I am a firm believer in this concept. But how is one to know about empowerment through education if they are not first at least aware of the idea? I think this is one of the responsibilities of the educator. Anyway, didn't intend to ramble. John M
Ethical Issues in Adult Ed- I find that I can quite readily relate to the issues discussed in this book. The book does not give answers, but poses questions. The marketing and program development issues were close to home, these are areas that I deal with at Aims. I do have some ethical dilemas related to the advising section. Is it ever appropriate to tell a student that they should just forget about the program they are in, they are just not making it? Does a situation like this just come down to tact and honesty? The further I get into this book, the more I see these situations in my day-to-day operations. One of the main themes of the book is to stimullate reflection. Hopefully this prevents an instructor from being blindsided by an ethical situation, but enables consideration beforehand. John M
DeeDee, The book that you read sounds like a really good one, I will need to put it on my list! It sounds like you and I had a very similar upbringing and we don’t really have any idea what it must have been like for other students of minorities. It is such a shame to think that these issues were so prevalent in the past and are still present today in some areas. I hope that I can be a teacher that will help break down those racial barriers.
Kay, I have heard so many good things about the book that you read, I have not had a chance to read it yet but I think that I should. The five different ways of knowing sound just like what I feel like my mother and grandmother never understood because of the generation and environment that they lived in. I am so thankful that I live in the times that I do and that I am surrounded by people that encourage me to reach higher goals. These ways of knowing sound like ways of knowing that all educators should have under their belts!
Alyson, I am sure that you are and well continue to be an amazing teacher. We can all take points out of the book that you are reading such as becoming a master in relationships, communication, or teaching. I think that those are the foundation of becoming a great teacher.
I appreciate your comment on “You must use the principles and practices to teach the principles and practices, or else you do not teach them accountably." I think that the way that this is said is spot on, and we all should take a close look at what this means.
I think John stated what I thought about WWK...from the summaries, it seems less about women and more about an experience of knowing that comes as a result of oppressive situations and overall empowerment.
John,
What were the "marketing and program dev issues?" Re: whether it is ever Ok to tell a student he/she is just not making it...I want to say Yes cuz I would want my teacher to say that too me (of course, if all options and resources have already been tried), but, as a teacher, how would I say that?!
Telling a student they are not cutting it is touchy and controversial. In my experience as an admin for a court reporting school, I was faced with this. Court reptg is not something everyone can do. As a matter of fact, I was told before I started my education in this field that I probably could not do it. But that set a fire under me and pushed me to completion. I was lucky. However, to watch someone waste time and money at something that will never happen is not easy. Educators have to be clear whether this is opinion or fact. I had several students with whom I had this discussion. I relied on the satisfactory standards of progress facts/figures; advised the student the figures; informed them of the probabilities for graduation; gave them options, goals, etc., if there was time to pull it out; and let the student decide. I had students quit our school just to go to another one. Some students get angry and some are grateful. As teachers and admin, we have to be vigilant and not wait to till the student is in dire straits before they are advised of the possibilities. That's my two cents.
What a great service Conley did in writing this book. To see education (and life) from the perspective of a white minority sounds like something we could all learn by. Question all assumptions.
As for WWK: How do we bring about the empowerment of the oppressed at an earlier level? Many are not directed to further their education, so they remain powerless. How do we get to these powerless in order to empower them and to make for a better society?
This is a great book to discuss, because it gives us the opportunity to view the student from different perspectives. On the face of it, it sounds like a student who simply does not try and is disruptive. So, why does he keep returning to the class?
Some of our adult learners come to class because it is their social outlet. It is a connection for them to the outside world. Some people go to the bars, some join different types of clubs such as book clubs, others turn to education.
Lisa, can you share with us from this perspective - what you might gain from this book?
Something I try to return to was shared by the head of conflict resolution on campus. She said "If, at the end of the day, I feel like I made good decisions, then I did well." Often we need to look to our instincts, our experience, and our heart to make tough decisions. Having data, as Kay mentions, can be an asset in hard decisions. Yet, sometimes we do not have it available.
For the AET program, we try to help people before they become involved in the program. We don't talk to all the students, but if the letter of intent in the application brings up questions, we will contact the applicant and talk to them about their goals and needs. I have suggested that students look at other programs more related to their goals, or that they do some investigative work about where they want to end up, before they begin the program. There are times when students get back to me to let me know that they have made another decision.
This is one reason we talk about resources for our learners. If we have a broader scope and perspective, and do not get into the trap of believe that our own program is the solution for everyone, we can really help individuals get to where they need to be.
Honky was recommended to me by the undergraduate open option advisor in the College of Liberal Arts. He is a black man, an actor, and one of the most amazing advisors on the CSU campus. It is a great story to get us looking at things from a very different perspective - a white minority and his struggles and successes.
Another text that he recommended is "Bowling Alone" this is a much longer book - which is why we don't include it on this list - but it is another very good read - for when you are missing all your reading assignments and wondering what to do with all your free time after you graduate : )
This book seems to hit some very sensitive issues for you, and I am sure it will for all of us at some point. I have not read the book yet so I can not tell you what I would interpret it to mean so I think it comes down to you needing to reach deep down in your teaching soul and doing what you would want a teacher to do for you. The truth might hurt but it could also really save a person from alot of heart ache. On the other hand gental words of encouragement and having a teacher believe in you has done wonders for me and I would not be here today if it weren't for a few of my teachers believeing in me when no one else did. My words of wisdom to you is to choose your words wisely and try not to ever give up on a student! I know that this book will be one that I should read soon, it sounds like the kind that everyone should read!
Your book sounds very relivent to today's educational environment. From what I am gathering from your posts so far, I think that the way that the student character challenges the teacher is not entirely bad, it causes the teacher to have accountability for his words. What do you think? Would you want your students to have a mind of their own and be able to think outside the box (like it sounds like this student character does) or would you rather them just be obediant and trust that the info that the teacher presents is always right? DEEP!!
Hi all- Kay your comment "As for WWK: How do we bring about the empowerment of the oppressed at an earlier level?" is for me a highly important question. My thought on this is that the answer lies with education. Although quite a cliche, "knowledge is power" to me succinctly says it all. But how do you know before you know? This, I think, is where educators come in. If you already are past the suppression of your prior position, I think you have some sort of obligation to help others. It may be as simple as helping a high school student realize their potential by pointing out to them that the norms and cliques found in high school commonly stay in high school after graduation. Now this may be oversimplifying, but it is one idea. I believe that people can realize their potential through education, if they can be motivated to understand this. I only wish I would have understood it a bit sooner. Anyway, better quit before I ramble anymore. John M
Linday- My book (Ethical Issues in Adult Ed)has as one of its main points the idea that reflection on ethical decisions is important. I am finding that a number of the chapters in the book present familiar situations. I am also finding that Adult Ed, and just about any other educational setting, is filled with ethical decisions. How can I flunk a student knowing what their personal situation is like, and knowing that by having a degree they may be able to exit some of the choas of their situation? But they have not earned a passing grade? It is tough when you think about the consequences of the decisions. John M
He left NYC to search for something different. In Berkley he found himself in the majority, which surprised him & felt uncomfortable for him. He also found privilege, classism, racism, etc. Conley closes the book saying how putting all his experiences together clarifies his life for him yet at the same time leaves him with many questions.
Response to DeeDee,
How very poetic. Do you feel that this book parallels your work with Resources for Disabled students? Often people can hide their disabilities from others but many can’t. They often feel like minorities. They too are subject to the prejudice and misconceptions of a population they live and work in. What do you think?
Lindsay- It is interesting that you said that the book I am reading sounds like a situation that one would encounter with today's students. This book was written in 1937, but your comment shows that some of the same issues then still occur now. I have enjoyed reading this book. The main student definitely had a different outlook on learning english, but not all bad. -Lisa
As interesting as it is to hear everyone's accounts of what they are reading, it will be even more interesting to read all the summaries we create from these books. It has been great to get an introduction to a handful of books that I need to read in the future. -Lisa
Kay - I have been able to identify how I think or know things and so I am putting WWK on my book list. Interestingly, I am finding it to be paradoxical because on on hand I could consider myself a Subjective Knower where I know what I know based upon intuition. This is especially true about my spiritual beliefs. For me this "truth" is a personal and private matter. However, I am also a procedural knower where I accept that there are "many origins of knowledge". So as a result, what is true for me I know may or may not be true for others. Except, of course when it comes to my children :)
Thank you for your wonderful summaries of the book.
Hi Wendy – I think your question was for me and I thank you for the opportunity. You are right in that people with disabilities also experience prejudice and that there is a difference between the visible and invisible disabilities. However, in my experience I have found it sometimes easier for me to dispel stereotypes and advocate for people with the visible disabilities. For example, when I am working with a blind student, providing Braille is never questioned or a ramp for a student in a wheelchair. However, when the student with dyslexia needs his/her book or test in an alternative format, people have questioned the need. “How did that person get into college if they can’t read?”
That is not to say that prejudices is perpetrated against people with visible disabilities. They also experience the type of discrimination that is called ableism. Abelism concerns the assumptions that people have towards disability. It perpetuates the stereotype that people with disabilities as unable as in: unable to be independent, unable to work, unable to do or be like people (apparently) without disabilities. The disability is seen first and the person second.
In reading Dede’s summary of her book, the author relates the different paradoxes that exist as it relates to race, class, and privilege. As a white man, he is privileged but he grew up as the minority in his school and so he has experienced a contradiction of situation. I feel this also the case for people with disabilities, especially when they have multiple identities, regardless if their disability is visible or not. Imagine the societal attitudes and differences when comparing a black lesbian woman in a wheelchair with that of a white heterosexual male also in a wheelchair. Though they would be able to share similar stories, their lives would be very different when factoring in race, gender, class, and privilege.
I agree with Kay that "telling a student they are not cutting it is touchy and controversial." This too is something that I face in my line of work, but I have have to be very careful not to question their ability to be something because of their disability. For example, I worked with a student who wanted to become a neurologist like her father. This is a student, who because of her disability, had a hard time focusing and who saw was a poor student, though she was passing (barely). I truly think her disability was why she wouldn't be successful but I couldn't legally say anything. I just had to rely upon the strict admission polices of the medical schools that she was applying to to send her the message that she needed to go to plan B. In the law, ADA and 504, there is the statement that accommodations don't have to be made if the student "is otherwise unqualified." The obviously is seen if a blind person wants to be bus driver, but technically this particular student would be considered qualified. There have been other students who have had the talk with about their carrer plans and their lack of academic success but this was because they were not passing. However, I am a big believer in plan B, having gone to that plan many times, and these talks have been somewhat postive. Fortunatly most students I work with are successful and I feel because they have a disability, they know what they want to do and what fits their abilities better than most students. Thanks - Karin
I have had some wonderful mentors in my life. Not all of them were labeled “mentors” but looking back at my relationship with them they were indeed mentors to me. I have become a mentor to others as well; it is a cycle of life. As we gain valuable information from our mentors, I think that it is our responsibility to pass on our wisdom to others. I have continued friendships with a few of the people in my life that I have considered mentors to me but unfortunately, I have lost touch with some truly great people that I did not see as a mentor to me at the time but I do now. I try to take a closer look at all of my connections now and keep them in my life you never know who can make a difference in your life or conversely, who I myself, may be able to help!
Karin- After considering your question about mentoring I have found that to some degree I try to find a mentor in the various positions that I am in. This pertains to jobs, especially when I worked as an apprentice. I have found that the guidance keeps me on track. I guess I view the situations as typically something someone has done before, so if I can learn from what worked for them, or from their mistakes, all the better. I also agree with what Linsay said, at some point I hope that I have the experience that someone else finds valuable, and am able to pass some of it on as well.
In my book Ethical Issues in Adult Ed there are several different ethical questions discussed. One of the chapter deals with marketing, a topic I find that I am spending an unfortunate amount of time with in my present position. The questions raised relate to the duties we have to learners when promoting a program. What are the job prospects? This is probably the question I get most often. I found this article in the August 3 edition of the Loveland Reporter-Herald. Now it is a bit of a farce, but I think that it may give some indication to the mindset of students and what their expectations are as they progress through a program. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ODD_JOBLESS_GRAD_SUES?SITE=COLOV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-08-02-20-42-38 I hope the ling works! If not, the article is short so I just copied it below.
Jobless NYC woman sues college for $70K in tuition NEW YORK (AP) -- A New York City woman who says she can't find a job is suing the college where she earned a bachelor's degree.
Trina Thompson filed a lawsuit last week against Monroe College in Bronx Supreme Court. The 27-year-old is seeking the $70,000 she spent on tuition.
Thompson says she's been unable to find gainful employment since she received her information technology degree in April.
She says the Bronx school's Office of Career Advancement hasn't provided her with the leads and career advice it promises.
Monroe College spokesman Gary Axelbank says Thompson's lawsuit is completely without merit.
The college insists it helps its graduates find jobs.
---
Information from: New York Post, http://www.nypost.com
Wow! Could you imagine all of the people right now who would be suing their colleges because they can’t find work! That is the most ridiculous thing that I have ever heard. It just goes to show that people won’t take responsibility for themselves; they just want to blame it on someone else. How ethical is that? P.S. Can you recommend a good lawyer, I can’t find work! ;)
Re telling a student they are not cutting it...At my previous employer -- the court reporting school -- Voc Rehab sent us a hard-of-hearing student. He wore two hearing aids and sat directly in front of the teacher (me) in order to hear the dictation. He did an amazing job-- was very determined! -- until the speeds got to 140 wpm and above. All the little words (a, the, that, this, what, were, etc.) were hard for him to distinguish and caused him to fail numerous tests. He had to withdraw due to hand injuries, but he would never have made it to 225 wpm. It's amazing that Voc Rehab sent him to a CTE which required intense hearing abilities.
We also had a lady whose first language was Japanese. She also made it to 140 and could not distinguish the inflected endings; she transferred to another school. I don't know her status today. On the other hand, we had two first-language Spanish-speaking students who graduated and, as far as I know, are working as court reporters today.
As teachers/admin, we don't really know who can make it and who can't -- everyone with reasonable abilities should be afforded the opportunity to prove themselves. So the question is: How do we handle these students during admissions? throughout the program?
The Daloz books reminds me of a saying: "Life is wavy." (That may not be verbatim.) I think of life as a noodle...hard and crunchy at times; compromising and pliable after you go through some heat; but always wavy.
Sounds like Daloz's stages of development for women run along the same lines as WWK's stages, just different names.
We had a couple students who threatened a class action lawsuit because they could not graduate. The wanted their school loans paid off after several of them had taken tens of thousands in refunds. My understanding is that because the contact hours conformed to our catalog claims there was no cause for action. They eventually dropped the claim.
Ethical Issues- The article I posted was again, kind of a farce. I can not believe that it would go anywhere. However I find that it is not uncommon for students to complain about some aspects of a course, especially when their grades are not all that good. Caffarella (p. 110) raiseed some important questions regarding the role of the teacher. Some are impartors of knowledge, some are facilitators. If we act as a facilitator, what are our ethical obligations regarding the learning requirements that are taking place? Also, should self directed learning take priority over specific, desired outcomes? (Caffarella, 1988 p 110) As the trends in education change, new ethical questions will arise. One complaint I have about the book is that it is from 1988. It would be nice to see an updated version, though it is interesting to note how applicable most of the questions are. John M
The major tenet in this book is about dialogue and engagement of the learner. It is about the teacher as facilitator of learning, as opposed to master authority on knowledge. This is what we've been learning throughout our androgogy discussions.
Vella's 12 principles declare that learners must be able to assess how their learning is measured for themselves and that they must see the immediate benefits and/or applications of having this learning as it relates to their lives. She is a proponent of building emotional safety and relationships (classic adult ed). She speaks of praxis, which we have discussed as metacognition and reflection. Our courses in this program continue to pinpoint the need for reflection as a way for adult learners to make meaning.
Vella addresses the need for the facilitator to stimulate the cognitive, affective, and pyschomotor arenas for the learner (mind, emotion, and action). This is experiential ed 101 and is valuable to an adult learner. It helps address the multiple learning styles and allows learners to choose how to learn in a way that best suits their needs and styles. Merriam, et al discussed empowerment and Vella might consider this defining the roles b/t learner and facilitator, where the learner is given the role of educating him or herself and the facilitator guides. Vella's principles of teamwork are classic adult ed and again, empowering. Finally, adult ed seems to focus less on covering a list of points and more about ensuring the adult learners are provided value. Vella might call this "engagement". And accountability is giving the adult learners ways that they can determine how they know something...have they learned it? This again, is classic adult ed b/c it empowers the learner to assess and define the learning and compare it to his or her own set goals and past experiences.
I have found the blog/discussion very interesting. I can't say how I will find the time to read all of these books, so the condensed discussion has been valuable. I have also posted and additional summary for Ethical Issues in Adult Education in RamCT. John M
RE: Vella and "Learning to Listen. Learning to Teach. The Power of Dialogue in Educating Adults"
I tend to agree with Vella that learning, thinking, and teaching are holistic pursuits. It is my humanist philosophy shining through. Did she go into detail about her teaching philosophy of quantum thinking?
I ask this question because of the idea that once we observe something, the thing being observed is no longer in its natural state. How do you think this applies to teaching? How do we know we impact something by looking at it when you can’t look at something without looking? Does this mean that we, ourselves, create our own reality? I have such a headache!
John - all though not 'real' I find the article very appropriate. I often receive calls from potential students asking "what can I do with your degree when I finish?" and "what type of job can I get". I will spend some time dialoging with the students and try illustrate to them it depends on what they want to do, how they apply themselves, and the connections that they make. I know that some programs do market their job placement rate - that still does not guarantee a job for every student : )
This ties into our discussion on Thursday about milelnials.
Some of the information shared in Learning to Listen, Learning to Teach parallels with the article that Kay wrote on Holistic Education.
We have gained so much knowledge over the years about 'what works' in teaching and learning. Yet, so often we do not see the skills and techniques applied in the learning environment.
Perhaps this is something that we need to discuss when we talk about the ethics of teaching : ) Karen
Honky by Dalton Conley
ReplyDeleteI guess I'll start. I'm reading Honky by Dalton Conley. It's the story of a white boy growing up in the housing projects of NYC in the 70's/80's & the ways in which his whiteness & privilege are revealed to him. It has definitely captured my attention since the author & I were born in the same year, 1969. Although we share the same generation, our childhood experiences are so very different. Mine come from living in the suburbs of Denver whereas Conley's life experiences are the stories made for TV movies are about. I can find common ground in being a Happy Days fanatic.
I've always taken getting a good education for granted. My experiences as a child led me to believe that everyone liked their teachers & that their teachers were good, effective teachers. I never moved throughout my K-12 education so I always knew where I would be going to school & who my teachers would be. Being part of the racial majority, I didn't think much about the few kids in our school that had darker colored skin. In Honkey, Conley's skin color put him in the minority in the public housing project in which the majority of people were African American and Puerto Rican. As Conley reflects on going to the neighborhood school, PS4, he sees that his whiteness allowed him some privileges other students did not have. For example, the African American teacher would rap students on the knuckles with a ruler for misbehaving, but Conley, no matter how much he tried to get in trouble, never got the ruler treatment. This caused him to develop a nervous tick by being singled out as different. When his mother met with the principal to find out what was happening, she was told Dalton wasn't hit because he was white.
The next year, Conley's mom worked the school system & was able to place Dalton in a "better" school in Greenwich Village, PS41. In a school of mostly white children, Conley learns the rules of having social class.
I chose the book Women's Ways of Knowing, mostly because it was available at the library while I was there. WWK was written in 1969 by Mary Field Belenky, Blythe Clinchy, Nancy Rule Goldberger, and Jill Mattuck Tarule. The human development theories of Carol Gilligan and William Perry, as many of us studied in 624 last semester, "inspired and informed" this study. WWK reports on five ways of knowing for women based on interviews with 135 women from several colleges and social service agencies. Although not intended for the study originally, sexual harassment and abuse became recurring themes in these women's pasts; therefore, the authors, midstream, adapted their interviews to include survey questions to follow this theme.
ReplyDeleteThe first way of knowing, according to Belenky, et al., is "silence." These "silent" subjects were brought up in families who were cut off from the broader community; at least one parent was violent; the other compliant/silent. As children, these women rarely had friends or played. Play, as the authors point out, develops the ability to form thoughts, gives the opportunity to make meaning, make decisions, and leads to the development of language skills. Women in this "silent" category of knowing do not see themselves as learners at all; they are unaware of the power of words for transmitting knowledge.
The second theory is "received knowers." These women see themselves as competent learners via the ability to absorb & store truth from others, as long as they don't have to reflect on their on ideas or think relativistically. They don't see themselves as constructors of knowledge. They believe knowledge is constructed in books and by researchers, but don’t see that the experts construct their own knowledge. They assume that answers are either right or wrong, good or bad, true/false, black/white; there is no gradation of truth. The authors talk of the "authority-right-we" concept. The women of the "received knowers" category did not align themselves with the "we" of authority; they were more likely to see authority as "they." Received knowers take in facts but do not analyze or transform those fact to make meaning for themselves. The received knowers in this study were devoted to the care and empowerment of others while they, themselves, remained selfless; they were comfortable with advancing themselves as long as it also meant they helped others.
Those are the first two of five ways of knowing that these authors found in their interviews. So far the book is fascinating.
Does anyone feel like they can relate to these women's ways of knowing? I think the stages also feel like stages in the learning process or the steps people go through in developing their skills on how to learn.
ReplyDeleteHonkey by Dalton Conley
ReplyDeleteOK so this book is really good & swim meets can be really long.
One thing that is standing out to me is the realization that all kids & adults go through the same issues of discovering their identity & fitting in with peer groups. Dalton has a hard time bringing a new friend from "the Village" to the projects. He's not embarrassed about his house but afraid his old friends will see the new white boy who's a little nerdy & Dalton will lose his credibility with the old friends. He also struggles with living in two worlds - that of a white, middle class school boy & the white kid living in the projects. He also struggles with being the city kid on vacation in rural Pennsylvania. Dalton also struggles to keep up with the kids in "the Village" who receive $10 allowances. He gets a job to make the money he wants to buy candy & comic books & is feeling good about himself until he finds out the kids are now getting a $20 allowance. He realizes he'll always have more than some but never enough to get ahead of others.
This book reflects universal themes of race & class. These are ideas I can relate to even though my upbringing was so very different from Dalton's.
I can relate to these women's ways of knowing. My progression through these stages has come later in my life, starting at approximately 40 years. However, some women I know went through the stages in adolescence; others, in their 20s and 30s; and still others, never went through the progression at all. That is the finding of Belenky, et al.: these states progressive.
ReplyDeleteThe authors report that men more easily take on the idea of multiple truths and their inner power - as a matter of fact, men "wrest" power away from other authority figures. On the other hand, women are fearful of losing connection with the "other" if they show their true Self.
I, too, DeeDee, would like to know if other women relate and if the men relate as well to these stages. But I can truly follow my own path, and it has nothing to do with academics (which is something Belenky et al also discuss).
DeeDee, Honky was recommended to me by a black professor on-campus. When I read it, I thought it would be great to add to this list. It really made me think about the different environments that we grow up and learn in. It can be so different depending on where we live and the culture we live in.
ReplyDeleteI myself grew up in as part of the majority in my public schooling. Working on the CSU campus, I have taught and worked along side people from all over the world. Understanding their experiences in an unfamiliar setting really helps me be compassionate.
Karen
Kay,
ReplyDeleteI am really enjoying how you are pulling information from WWK. I have found that as one moves up the ranks in higher education that you really see the difference in power between men and women and how they 'handle it'. What is interesting is observing women who have taken on what I will call the male norms. Often they are frowned upon by both male and female colleagues.
Karen
It is amazing how much this book chronicles my own path. And I thought that I have been living outside the box for the last ten year. I had no idea I was a poster child for predictability!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteit's always interesting to have our perceptions challenged or highlighted. i guess education will always be a p/o of every experience when some type of learning takes place (whether miseducation or not). dee dee's book sounds like the classic story: black like me, manchild in the promised land, soul on ice (eldredge cleaver), the souls of black folk (dubois), ain't i a woman (sojourner truth), finding forester, not to mention the pollock in the italian block in nyc, or the christian in palestine, or the girl with the pathological disorder that causes her to studder and not be able to get a job but she has an intellect that can outpace any peer.
ReplyDelete"Learning to Listen. Learning to Teach. The Power of Dialogue in Educating Adults" by Jane Vella
ReplyDeleteVella adheres to a teaching philosophy she calls "quantum thinking," based on some of the principles of quantum physics. Though not revolutionary or new, this philosophy seems to adhere to the concept that learning, thinking, and teaching are holistic pursuits-- that they are synergistic and dependent on others, oneself, and the environment around us.
The book provides a series of stories throughout Vella's professional life that demonstrate ways in which dialoguing with students and "stakeholders" has proved a primary learning and teaching strategy across cultures, religions, subject areas, and religions, among others. Relationships built between teacher and student and authentic dialogue produce effective learning.
The most appealing aspect of this book to me is Vella's experience as a trainer. She traveled all over the world and taught many content areas with which she was not familiar. Most of her function is as a guide who teaches others how to find the knowledge they need. She facilitates this process through dialogue, inquiry, and her own personal research. She mostly trains others who will train others in a particular content area. Perhaps the subject in which she is a master is relationships, communication, or teaching. She uses this knowledge to effectively enter foreign environments, assess the learning needs, nurture relationships to students, design learning strategies, and lead the students in their own learning. Because I don't feel I am a master at any one subject area, I am encouraged that I should still be able to successfully teach others how to lead/instruct others and themselves. Her stories seem to highlight that knowing how to communicate well with others is really the master craft of a teacher. This is something in which I can remain interested and to which I can aspire.
I appreciated Vella's statement pointing out how teachers often try to teach alternative methods of teaching but only use a lecture/monologue approach when they teach it: "This is one of the most compelling aspects of dialogue education. You must use the principles and practices to teach the principles and practices, or else you do not teach them accountably." This, I think will continue to be a challenge for me as I teach b/c it seems to take more creativity and planning. I also consider it ironic that Vella's recommendation doesn't happen more often.
ReplyDeleteThe next phase in Women's Ways of Lnowing, according to Blenkey, et al., is "Subjective Knowers." Their truth is based on intuition; i.e., a truth that is felt and not actively constructed. They "just know." This stage of knowing is the first time that subjective truth appears in the interviewees. Truth becomes a personal and private matter here.
ReplyDeleteThese women do not impose on others their beliefs, don't try to resolve disagreements by pushing their way of thinking on others. If there comes a situation where experience and/or inner voice is not present, the subjective knower tries "a little bit of everything" until something comes up that works for her (p. 70). This group of women still see men as the authorities and they distrust rational processes (some become anti-male), feeling that the intuition is safer. Some women holding these beliefs will stay here the rest of their lives; however, others who return to education will move on to the more logical/objective ways of knowing.
More than 1/2 of the interviewees had recently undergone a change of relationships; they rejected responsibilities and left intolerable situations -- without much forethought. Many identify themselves in opposition to others. They continue to lack a secure self-concept and may even draw from past self-concept and external judgments/labels.
Where the received knowers (previously discussed) hold to the either/or path to truth, subjective knowers are now able to listen to, consider, and try to understand others' points of view before coming to their own opinion, which they can now substantiate.
Overall, subjective knowers are positive and forward-looking with an "inner fire" (p. 83).
Kay,
ReplyDeleteI wonder if man's or child's ways of knowing is any different but perhaps less investigated. Men, esp in our American culture, are given less permission to "know" in this way...even if it is something that feels right to them.
P.S. Kay,
ReplyDeleteI can hear your sizzling "fire" now :o)! Go girl.
Ethical Issues in Adult Education
ReplyDeleteI chose this book mainly because I can relate to many of the issues discussed. This book is a compilation by several different authors. The books discusses different issues, although typically does not offer clear cut solutions. This seems reasonable when considering that each situation has its own particular circumstances. For example, every semester I struggle with the issue of late and incomplete homework, or missed exams. My promgram can be considered a gateway for students to careers, so a failing grade can directly affect their job prospects. Do I give a D instead of an F just to try to help students succeed in a career? The decisions we make as instructors have ramifications in many different directions, but trying to be aware is my first approach.
John M
Hi Kay and all-
ReplyDeleteI have a comment on the Women's Ways of Knowing" book. I have to say, I have difficulties with the approach. I understand the points made, but to me the steps involved relate to perspectives versus "truth". (I put truth in quotes, because the use of the term to me is another issue entirely.) It seems to me that the perspective may and does change, but what the knowledge ACTUALLY is remains the same. The truth term is difficult for me to grasp as well, is it objective and knowable, subjective and knowable, or objective or subjective and just not knowable? To me, these ideas (and some of the ideas we covered in Don's class last spring) make some epistmological leaps that I feel are pretty major. I am interested in hearing (is that the proper term on a blog?) what others have to say about this.
John M
Hello, I am reading Three Cups of tea, by Greg Mortenson and David Oliver Relin. This is a great read and I suggest we all read it at some point. It's topics are very relivant for the issures of today's world issues.
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDelete"Epistemological leaps?" Wow. :o)
All,
It seems that women's ways of knowing is about a human's pursuit of knowing him or herself, but that this study focused on women. Is that true, Kay? Can a non-woman go through this same process? Is this process only accessible if a person has experienced some level of oppression? It seems I know some very wise, insightful and intuitive white males...so, it makes me wonder.
The subject or reality of love is known, felt, and lived yet scholars, poets, artists, scientists have been baffled for years to define it. Truth is there but, as John might consider, the individual perspective defines it...yet it is still a wonderful enigma. Love is. You are. How do the 2 intersect? Is that truth? Is that "knowing?" And, is a woman more apt to "know" it b/c she's a woman?
Lindsay!
ReplyDeleteWow, you even have a picture up of yourself! So much for being behind the times in the land of computers and cyberspace. Good job getting on this blog!
Thanks Alyson!
ReplyDeleteI figured I would experement a little and find out more about his Blogging stuff. I think it will be fun!
Book Blog- part one
ReplyDeleteThree cups of tea starts out with Greg Mortenson attempting to climb the world second largest mountain on earth, K2 (second only to Mount Everest). Mortenson has set this goal for himself because he wishes to set his late sisters necklace at the summit to fulfill a promise that he made to her. Because of one mishap after another he is unable to reach this goal but in the process while he is in the Pakistan region he sees how desperately the children of this country are in need of good schools.
Mortenson decides that he wants to build a school for the children in Pakistan now in his sister’s memory. He has no idea how to go about doing this so he simply starts by making contacts. Mortenson was fortunate to find people in this country that shared his vision and were willing to help him in his quest. Just as in our class studies, Greg recognized a need for something and started to execute steps in order to make the goal a reality. Mortenson began by finding the supplies that would be necessary to resurrect a building. He then realized that the people of this country had no money to pay for this school and that if he felt that it was important to have the school built he would need to find the funds to build it himself. Mortenson himself was not a wealthy man and so he set forth to find anyone who would be willing to help fund this school.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGreg Mortenson was lucky to meet all of the right people and shortly after he started his quest to find money to build the school he was able to collect just the right amount of money to build the school. As he returned to Pakistan with the supplies to build the school he began to run into more and more hurdles. First problem he encountered was that the location for the school was in a remote village and there was no way for him to get the supplies across a major river. The people of this country were expecting him to bring money and supplies to also build a bridge. This set the progress back in a big way because now Mortenson felt that in order to build the school that he had worked so hard on researching and raising money for the supplies he now needed to build a bridge. In the mean time the people were so excited to get their school and did not understand why this American could not deliver his promise. Mortenson needed to return to the states and leave all of his supplies behind.
ReplyDeleteOnce he was back in the United States, Mortenson continued with speaking engagements at various locations trying to get anyone to listen to his vision. At numerous engagements only a handful of people showed up to listen to him and Mortenson was not sure that he would be able to deliver the school to the children of Pakistan. Through more fortunate connections, Greg was able to raise more money and make arrangements to have the appropriate supplies delivered to his school site. He once again continued to the region. By this time, so many people had heard about the American that had come to build a school and everyone wanted to be a part of it!
Mortenson returned to the area and his building supplies were nowhere to be found! Another party was holding the supplies and more or less told Greg that he could have them as soon as he promised to build a school for them. Yet another obstacle to overcome to build his school!
Three Cups of Tea
ReplyDeletePersistence and patience are what Mortenson seems to have an overflowing cup of. I think adults in education need the same gifts. Many adults wait patiently to return to school or find the right program. When they get there many obstacles get in their way.
Learning to Listen. Learning to Teach.
To me it seems as if Vella has it right - communication is the key to teaching and learning. The teacher has to be able to communicate ideas and to listen to student's needs; students need to be able to express their needs and ideas as well as really listen to the teacher and peers.
Honky
ReplyDeleteby Dalton Conley
A defining moment of the ideas of class, race, & privilege are found in an accidental fire set by Dalton. While in junior high, Dalton was playing at his friend, Raphael's apartment. The two boys were flinging matches at each other & putting them out with a squirt bottle. One match was flung at a bed & unfortunately not put out. Much damage ensued but no blame was place on either boy. Conley writes, "the fire taught me one of the most subtle but powerful privileges of middle-class status: the chance to work problems out informally, without the interference of the authorities (i.e. police). Poor minorities get no such allowances...Raphael's family represented the right class and I the right race."
Later in the chapter, Dalton ties this fire incident to another friend who was busted in a drug raid and received the mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years. "I, by contrast, learned enough of a lesson from the fire itself."
So what can we as educators take away from this scenario? For me, it demonstrates how certain classes & races receive privileges that they don't even realize until an incident is put in context with other incidents. For students who attend our classes, they are already experiencing privilege just by being there. Many of them may not recognize it. Others who have struggled to overcome stereotypes & biases to get into classes feel honored to be there. I believe their achievement needs to be recognized.
John, I love your comments. Good question: perspectives or truth? And I agree with Alyson..."epistmological leaps?" Nice!
ReplyDeleteBelenky, et al., set out the five ways (positions) of knowing as the perspectives from which the 135 women subjects perceive the locus of "truth" and view the holders of knowledge, authority, and power as outside themselves. For the purposes of demonstrating their point, the authors are distinguishing the "truth" as something that is "out there somewhere," that is elusive to women, something that is separate from what they know. Silent knowers and received knowers, I think, would agree that they themselves may have a "perspective" on issues, but it is confused, fuzzy, even wrong in their minds. But the "truth" is something the authorities/experts hold as a secret and is beyond the grasp of most of these women. Experts/authorities who are worth their salt may recognize that their "truth" is truly their "perspective"; but for women, often the experts' perspective is what they (the women) perceive as the "truth."
Karen brought up the point of power. Without holding the "truth" about something -- only a flawed and fuzzy perspective -- women give up their power to men in the workforce, in academe, and in the home. Actually, I was told once that you cannot give up something you don't know you have, so I will refine my words there...Women hold no power when they think the "truth" is somewhere outside of themselves.
Finding other women in power who held the "truth" was unusual in the mid-80s when the book was written (still prevalent, but maybe to a lesser extent today -- thank you, Karen!); so women had no female role model who held the "truth" to even believe there was any hope of holding this "truth" some day for themselves.
John, I would be interested in knowing if these ways of learning parallel your ways as a man at all. I just finished the book and will be posting the other three ways (I think that's where I am on the blog) of knowing later today.
So I have blogged about silent knowers, received knowers, and subjective knowers. The next ways of knowing are "procedural" and "constructed."
ReplyDeleteProcedural knowers, for the first time, accept that there are many origins of knowledge. They are now able to construct a way to consider these sources. They concentrate on this structure/methodology to assess the "truth."
This position of knowing stems from an awakening (sometimes rude awakening in the form of drama/trauma) that the subjective knower ("I just know!") could be faulty. The woman reverts to confusion as to where the "truth" really lies: internally or externally. This return to confusion places the knower in the position of wanting to understand the authorities'/experts'/mom's/dad's knowing and integrating it with now a more logical approach to their own knowing, again using a methodology to consider both sides of the issue.
Within this procedural knowing, the authors see a breakdown of "separate knowers" and "connected knowers." Separate knowers (SKs) remain autonomous, experiencing relationships as a "reciprocity" (this is often fathers); whereas, connected knowers (CKs) experience relationships as a "response to others in their terms" (often mother).
SKs as teachers bring to a group their "fully developed ideas" and hope to "sell it"; CK teachers seek to understand others' ideas. SK teachers are more like the traditional educators: along with selling ideas, they suppress the self and take an impersonal stance toward the object; they remove the self and personal feelings. CK teachers care and emphasize feelings within themselves.
Lastly, constructed knowers integrate the voice of reason AND intuition AND expertise of others; theories are viewed as educated guesses. Constructed knowers are not upset by ambiguity, conflict, and contradiction, but welcome them. This position of knowing is a connection, an opening, of the heart and mind. Connected knowers have the capacity to feel related to another person regardless of a difference of position.
In Part II of the book, the authors focus on the familial and educational backgrounds of these various ways of knowing (both negative and positive). So as not to be redundant of my previous posts, I will summarize what TO DO (as opposed to what not to do) to raise/teach a constructed/connected-knower girl:
Girls as constructed/connected knowers have mothers who have voices in their own lives; admire fathers who listen and mothers who speak up (often reality is vice versa). Mothers of these girls hear, respect, trust, and value their daughters on their (the daughters') own terms. Connected teaching involves helping girls to know that they know something already; that there is something good inside of them. (Being doubted is often found as debilitating in girls.)
As opposed to Freire's "banking theory" (deposits of facts by teachers/withdrawals, by students), connected teachers are like midwives (maternal): they help students give birth to their own ideas; they receive and accept the students' feelings toward the subject matter without imposing their own (the teachers') views, opinions, etc. The connected or midwife teacher tries to connect personally with each student; i.e., give all their attention to each student in the moment without feeling they have to make long-term relationships.
On a personal note, I truly relate to this book. Since arriving at CSU last August, I have seen this connected teacher theory in action; i.e., respected for my opinions and interpretations. Thank you, Karen and Don!
Awesome book!
Eventually, Mortenson started construction on the bridge and then the school. He also started planning for more schools around the area. His popularity erupted and as he traveled back and forth from Pakistan and the US he gained more and more followers and people who believed in his work. He would hold various speaking engagements and they sold out.
ReplyDeleteMortenson’s personal life and relationships were also tattered in this whole process. At one point Greg was held hostage and was uncertain why the captors wanted him. As it turned out it was a big mix up of mistaken identity. This was not an easy task; he started this whole process in 1993 and was even stuck in Pakistan when 9/11 happened. Everyone was very scared for Greg during 9/11 but he said that he was probably in the safest place at that time. It was very hard for him to eventually get back to the US but he did.
This story was very inspirational because I too have a vision and am afraid to take that first step because I don’t want to fail. Mortenson’s story is a great example that it is not easy (if it was everyone would be doing it) but through hard work and perseverance anyone is capable of starting a school or doing whatever they wish too. Greg Mortenson had no idea how to start a school for children in a foreign country but he went out on a limb and created dozens of schools for hundreds of eager boys and especially girls who were hungry to learn!
This was a great book and I give it two thumbs up!!!!
Three Cups of Tea: Yea! for Mortenson holding on to his passion through adversity -- even threats. In my personal experience, passion moves an energy in this life to help us succeed in what we envision; we are provided that which we need to accomplish the task. The challenge is to keep the passion, keep the vision, inspite of trials, until our passion comes to fruition. Mortenson is, indeed, a special man.
ReplyDeleteHonkey: I took a very intense, even confrontational, race relations class in my undergrad program. I learned so much. Among other things: how predominately African-American schools had, in the not so distant past, textbooks often 20, 30 (perhaps more) years outdated; how schools were understaffed with mediocre/poor teachers; how AA standardized test scores were so much lower than predominately Caucasian schools. Of course, throughout time, in the white community, low AA test scores were perceived as a characteristic of the AA race as a whole. Is there any wonder test scores may have been lower if the materials/resources/teachers were so deficient???
I grew up in the East St. Louis, IL area at a time when race riots were common. Many of the AA students in this 2000 or 2001 undergrad class (several generations after the race riots) continued to be outwardly angry, resentful, and bitter. I don't know how these students left the class, but I left a changed person. I went in perceiving that all (yes all) AAs were underprivileged and poor; I came out knowing that many, although still oppressed by white society, had more privileges and advantages as young children than did I; i.e., children's books in the home, library cards, parents still in a loving marital relationship, etc. I mention this simply to point out the assumptions and perceptions that we hold. I had thought that just because they were black and I was white that I had more "stuff," more privilege, more advantage. I learned that our perceptions are a result of our filters, how we were treated, how the world responded to us. Although I may not have been as privileged, I was perceived --and therefore, behaved -- as if.
I remember as a very young child driving to my grandmother's in East St. Louis, which at that time was beginning to change from a predominately white to a predominately black community. I remember signs on restaurant doors, restrooms, and drinking fountains proclaiming "whites only" or "no Negroes/colored allowed." I remember thinking: Why? But the adults explained, that's just the way it is (or words to that effect) and I accepted it (I was a "silent" knower back then!).
I think (and hope) that society has come a long way from those days...but I am not AA and I can no longer presume I know their experience.
I think I digressed... Both these books sound great. I hope I have the opportunity to read them some day.
Lindsay,
ReplyDeleteI appreciated your comment about the need 4 perseverance and hard work. It seems that if you or I want to do what is on our hearts and minds, we may have to think like an entrepreneur or social activist...be willing to build a school/thought/paradigm/structure/course/theory and battle obstacles. Hmmm...don't know that I have it in me...or, better whether I feel like digging those wells.
Kay,
Your midwife comment made me think of Jay's project a couple of semester's ago where he saw himself as a midwife (as his teaching philosophy). Since he is white and a male, can he be the same kind of "knower" your book talks about?
The book I am reading is The Education of Hyman Kaplan, by Leonard Ross. It is the accounts of an immigrant working towards acquiring citizenship within the U.S. and the instructors challenges with this student. Mr. Kaplan is a very enthusiastic learner, but he makes Mr. Parkhill question his years of instructing individuals in this area of learning.
ReplyDelete-Lisa
WWK - the question was asked if men's ways of knowing have been studied in the same way? I had to think about this before responding. There have been many studies completed about men, male leaders, male relationships, male forms of communication, etc. I suspect there have even been some that have looked at it from the same perspective as WWK. The challenge is that woman have not historically been in the roles that men have - so men have been studied so much more then women have.
ReplyDeleteI hesitate to even mention the book "Venus and Mars" I read it and hated it - because I thought it was way to cliche and stereotypical. I was very dissapointed but also not people who raved about it.
There are dozens of studies about how men and woman communicate differently and how to overcome those barriers.
WWK is a seminole book in the field, the first well known study on this topic - and why we (and almost everyone studying higher education) reads it at some point : )
Karen
I would like to comment on the “Honky by Dalton Conley.” I think this sound’s like a fascinating book. I grew up here in Fort Collins, and subsequently was in the racial majority my whole life. Sharing a cubical with an African American woman in Washington D.C. made me realize that I had no idea what it was like to be a minority.
ReplyDeleteSince that realization, I find any autobiographical novels that deal with race relations to be fascinating. Reading books like this helps you begin to develop a perspective unlike the one you grew up with.
I have a few questions:
Was the book pro-classism or anti-classism?
Was his experience as a white minatory helpful later in life?
Was the book more about race or social class, or were the two concepts inseparable?
Honky
ReplyDeleteby Dalton Conley
Response to Wendy's questions:
I don't feel the book had a strong view pro or anti-classism. If anything it tended to be more anti pointing out times when Conley received privileges either he didn't deserve or that he felt everyone deserved. Also, I believe Conley views race & social class as separate but intertwined. Both play a role in prejudice, privilege, & racism.
In the last chapter of the book, Conley relates his experiences of going to college at UC-Berkley. He left NYC to search for something different. In Berkley he found himself in the majority, which surprised him & felt uncomfortable for him. He also found privilege, classism, racism, etc. Conley closes the book saying how putting all his experiences together clarifies his life for him yet at the same time leaves him with many questions.
The Education of Hyman Kaplan
ReplyDeleteLisa, this was another book I considered reading. It sounds very interesting. I'm curious what is it about Hyman Kaplan that makes him a challenge?
Three Cups of Tea
ReplyDeleteLindsey, I enjoyed reading your comments about this book. I have put it on my reading list. I am impressed with Mortenson's perseverance and patience. He believed everything would work out to build schools & kept moving in that direction. It's a great lesson to learn, follow, & share with others.
See my book summary at: http://weades.blogspot.com/
ReplyDeleteThe Education of Hyman Kaplan
ReplyDeleteDeeDee, Mr. Kaplan is extremely enthralled with trying to learn the language, but he continuously puts words and contexts into his own meanings. Mr. Parkhill is always encouraged by his students enthusiasm, but it gets quickly dispelled when Mr. Kaplan does not seem to learn from his mistakes.
WWK-
ReplyDeleteTo me the perspective seems to be one of who holds power, or maybe control would be a better term. Obviously I can not comment firsthand about the perspective of women, but as far as how I relate to Kay's comments about the book, I think that they would be at least somewhat familiar to anyone who has been in a situation that is ultimately controlled by someone else. This could be teacher/student, journeyman/apprentice, parent/child, etc. Now the historical suppression of women (and possibly current in some cases) may be a bit more serious, but what I get from Kay's description of stages is self-empowerment. The common theme that I see not just from WWK but also from Dee Dee's book and Lisa's book is empowerment through education. I am a firm believer in this concept. But how is one to know about empowerment through education if they are not first at least aware of the idea? I think this is one of the responsibilities of the educator. Anyway, didn't intend to ramble.
John M
Ethical Issues in Adult Ed-
ReplyDeleteI find that I can quite readily relate to the issues discussed in this book. The book does not give answers, but poses questions. The marketing and program development issues were close to home, these are areas that I deal with at Aims.
I do have some ethical dilemas related to the advising section. Is it ever appropriate to tell a student that they should just forget about the program they are in, they are just not making it? Does a situation like this just come down to tact and honesty? The further I get into this book, the more I see these situations in my day-to-day operations. One of the main themes of the book is to stimullate reflection. Hopefully this prevents an instructor from being blindsided by an ethical situation, but enables consideration beforehand.
John M
DeeDee,
ReplyDeleteThe book that you read sounds like a really good one, I will need to put it on my list! It sounds like you and I had a very similar upbringing and we don’t really have any idea what it must have been like for other students of minorities. It is such a shame to think that these issues were so prevalent in the past and are still present today in some areas. I hope that I can be a teacher that will help break down those racial barriers.
Kay,
ReplyDeleteI have heard so many good things about the book that you read, I have not had a chance to read it yet but I think that I should. The five different ways of knowing sound just like what I feel like my mother and grandmother never understood because of the generation and environment that they lived in. I am so thankful that I live in the times that I do and that I am surrounded by people that encourage me to reach higher goals. These ways of knowing sound like ways of knowing that all educators should have under their belts!
Alyson,
ReplyDeleteI am sure that you are and well continue to be an amazing teacher. We can all take points out of the book that you are reading such as becoming a master in relationships, communication, or teaching. I think that those are the foundation of becoming a great teacher.
I appreciate your comment on “You must use the principles and practices to teach the principles and practices, or else you do not teach them accountably." I think that the way that this is said is spot on, and we all should take a close look at what this means.
Sounds like a great book!
Wow! I am really interested in all of these books and I realize that I have a lot of reading to do!!
ReplyDeleteAll,
ReplyDeleteI think John stated what I thought about WWK...from the summaries, it seems less about women and more about an experience of knowing that comes as a result of oppressive situations and overall empowerment.
John,
What were the "marketing and program dev issues?" Re: whether it is ever Ok to tell a student he/she is just not making it...I want to say Yes cuz I would want my teacher to say that too me (of course, if all options and resources have already been tried), but, as a teacher, how would I say that?!
Ethical Issues in Adult Ed-
ReplyDeleteTelling a student they are not cutting it is touchy and controversial. In my experience as an admin for a court reporting school, I was faced with this. Court reptg is not something everyone can do. As a matter of fact, I was told before I started my education in this field that I probably could not do it. But that set a fire under me and pushed me to completion. I was lucky. However, to watch someone waste time and money at something that will never happen is not easy. Educators have to be clear whether this is opinion or fact. I had several students with whom I had this discussion. I relied on the satisfactory standards of progress facts/figures; advised the student the figures; informed them of the probabilities for graduation; gave them options, goals, etc., if there was time to pull it out; and let the student decide. I had students quit our school just to go to another one. Some students get angry and some are grateful. As teachers and admin, we have to be vigilant and not wait to till the student is in dire straits before they are advised of the possibilities. That's my two cents.
Honkey:
ReplyDeleteWhat a great service Conley did in writing this book. To see education (and life) from the perspective of a white minority sounds like something we could all learn by. Question all assumptions.
As for WWK: How do we bring about the empowerment of the oppressed at an earlier level? Many are not directed to further their education, so they remain powerless. How do we get to these powerless in order to empower them and to make for a better society?
ReplyDeleteHyman Kaplan.....why is he such a challenge?
ReplyDeleteThis is a great book to discuss, because it gives us the opportunity to view the student from different perspectives. On the face of it, it sounds like a student who simply does not try and is disruptive. So, why does he keep returning to the class?
Some of our adult learners come to class because it is their social outlet. It is a connection for them to the outside world. Some people go to the bars, some join different types of clubs such as book clubs, others turn to education.
Lisa, can you share with us from this perspective - what you might gain from this book?
Wendy, I posted on your blog today.
ReplyDeleteJohn....tough questions.
ReplyDeleteSomething I try to return to was shared by the head of conflict resolution on campus. She said "If, at the end of the day, I feel like I made good decisions, then I did well." Often we need to look to our instincts, our experience, and our heart to make tough decisions. Having data, as Kay mentions, can be an asset in hard decisions. Yet, sometimes we do not have it available.
For the AET program, we try to help people before they become involved in the program. We don't talk to all the students, but if the letter of intent in the application brings up questions, we will contact the applicant and talk to them about their goals and needs. I have suggested that students look at other programs more related to their goals, or that they do some investigative work about where they want to end up, before they begin the program. There are times when students get back to me to let me know that they have made another decision.
This is one reason we talk about resources for our learners. If we have a broader scope and perspective, and do not get into the trap of believe that our own program is the solution for everyone, we can really help individuals get to where they need to be.
Karen
Honky was recommended to me by the undergraduate open option advisor in the College of Liberal Arts. He is a black man, an actor, and one of the most amazing advisors on the CSU campus. It is a great story to get us looking at things from a very different perspective - a white minority and his struggles and successes.
ReplyDeleteAnother text that he recommended is "Bowling Alone" this is a much longer book - which is why we don't include it on this list - but it is another very good read - for when you are missing all your reading assignments and wondering what to do with all your free time after you graduate : )
John,
ReplyDeleteThis book seems to hit some very sensitive issues for you, and I am sure it will for all of us at some point. I have not read the book yet so I can not tell you what I would interpret it to mean so I think it comes down to you needing to reach deep down in your teaching soul and doing what you would want a teacher to do for you. The truth might hurt but it could also really save a person from alot of heart ache. On the other hand gental words of encouragement and having a teacher believe in you has done wonders for me and I would not be here today if it weren't for a few of my teachers believeing in me when no one else did. My words of wisdom to you is to choose your words wisely and try not to ever give up on a student! I know that this book will be one that I should read soon, it sounds like the kind that everyone should read!
Lindsay
Lisa,
ReplyDeleteYour book sounds very relivent to today's educational environment. From what I am gathering from your posts so far, I think that the way that the student character challenges the teacher is not entirely bad, it causes the teacher to have accountability for his words. What do you think? Would you want your students to have a mind of their own and be able to think outside the box (like it sounds like this student character does) or would you rather them just be obediant and trust that the info that the teacher presents is always right? DEEP!!
Lindsay
Wendy,
ReplyDeleteI also found your site and made a comment! Nice job by the way, it sounds like another good book!
Lindsay
Hi all-
ReplyDeleteKay your comment "As for WWK: How do we bring about the empowerment of the oppressed at an earlier level?" is for me a highly important question. My thought on this is that the answer lies with education. Although quite a cliche, "knowledge is power" to me succinctly says it all. But how do you know before you know? This, I think, is where educators come in. If you already are past the suppression of your prior position, I think you have some sort of obligation to help others. It may be as simple as helping a high school student realize their potential by pointing out to them that the norms and cliques found in high school commonly stay in high school after graduation. Now this may be oversimplifying, but it is one idea. I believe that people can realize their potential through education, if they can be motivated to understand this. I only wish I would have understood it a bit sooner.
Anyway, better quit before I ramble anymore.
John M
Linday-
ReplyDeleteMy book (Ethical Issues in Adult Ed)has as one of its main points the idea that reflection on ethical decisions is important. I am finding that a number of the chapters in the book present familiar situations. I am also finding that Adult Ed, and just about any other educational setting, is filled with ethical decisions. How can I flunk a student knowing what their personal situation is like, and knowing that by having a degree they may be able to exit some of the choas of their situation? But they have not earned a passing grade? It is tough when you think about the consequences of the decisions.
John M
He left NYC to search for something different. In Berkley he found himself in the majority, which surprised him & felt uncomfortable for him. He also found privilege, classism, racism, etc. Conley closes the book saying how putting all his experiences together clarifies his life for him yet at the same time leaves him with many questions.
ReplyDeleteResponse to DeeDee,
How very poetic. Do you feel that this book parallels your work with Resources for Disabled students? Often people can hide their disabilities from others but many can’t. They often feel like minorities. They too are subject to the prejudice and misconceptions of a population they live and work in. What do you think?
Lindsay-
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting that you said that the book I am reading sounds like a situation that one would encounter with today's students. This book was written in 1937, but your comment shows that some of the same issues then still occur now. I have enjoyed reading this book. The main student definitely had a different outlook on learning english, but not all bad.
-Lisa
As interesting as it is to hear everyone's accounts of what they are reading, it will be even more interesting to read all the summaries we create from these books. It has been great to get an introduction to a handful of books that I need to read in the future.
ReplyDelete-Lisa
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ReplyDeleteKay - I have been able to identify how I think or know things and so I am putting WWK on my book list. Interestingly, I am finding it to be paradoxical because on on hand I could consider myself a Subjective Knower where I know what I know based upon intuition. This is especially true about my spiritual beliefs. For me this "truth" is a personal and private matter. However, I am also a procedural knower where I accept that there are "many origins of knowledge". So as a result, what is true for me I know may or may not be true for others. Except, of course when it comes to my children :)
ReplyDeleteThank you for your wonderful summaries of the book.
Hi Wendy – I think your question was for me and I thank you for the opportunity.
ReplyDeleteYou are right in that people with disabilities also experience prejudice and that there is a difference between the visible and invisible disabilities. However, in my experience I have found it sometimes easier for me to dispel stereotypes and advocate for people with the visible disabilities. For example, when I am working with a blind student, providing Braille is never questioned or a ramp for a student in a wheelchair. However, when the student with dyslexia needs his/her book or test in an alternative format, people have questioned the need. “How did that person get into college if they can’t read?”
That is not to say that prejudices is perpetrated against people with visible disabilities. They also experience the type of discrimination that is called ableism. Abelism concerns the assumptions that people have towards disability. It perpetuates the stereotype that people with disabilities as unable as in: unable to be independent, unable to work, unable to do or be like people (apparently) without disabilities. The disability is seen first and the person second.
In reading Dede’s summary of her book, the author relates the different paradoxes that exist as it relates to race, class, and privilege. As a white man, he is privileged but he grew up as the minority in his school and so he has experienced a contradiction of situation. I feel this also the case for people with disabilities, especially when they have multiple identities, regardless if their disability is visible or not. Imagine the societal attitudes and differences when comparing a black lesbian woman in a wheelchair with that of a white heterosexual male also in a wheelchair. Though they would be able to share similar stories, their lives would be very different when factoring in race, gender, class, and privilege.
I agree with Kay that "telling a student they are not cutting it is touchy and controversial." This too is something that I face in my line of work, but I have have to be very careful not to question their ability to be something because of their disability. For example, I worked with a student who wanted to become a neurologist like her father. This is a student, who because of her disability, had a hard time focusing and who saw was a poor student, though she was passing (barely). I truly think her disability was why she wouldn't be successful but I couldn't legally say anything. I just had to rely upon the strict admission polices of the medical schools that she was applying to to send her the message that she needed to go to plan B. In the law, ADA and 504, there is the statement that accommodations don't have to be made if the student "is otherwise unqualified." The obviously is seen if a blind person wants to be bus driver, but technically this particular student would be considered qualified. There have been other students who have had the talk with about their carrer plans and their lack of academic success but this was because they were not passing. However, I am a big believer in plan B, having gone to that plan many times, and these talks have been somewhat postive. Fortunatly most students I work with are successful and I feel because they have a disability, they know what they want to do and what fits their abilities better than most students. Thanks - Karin
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ReplyDeleteKarin,
ReplyDeleteI have had some wonderful mentors in my life. Not all of them were labeled “mentors” but looking back at my relationship with them they were indeed mentors to me. I have become a mentor to others as well; it is a cycle of life. As we gain valuable information from our mentors, I think that it is our responsibility to pass on our wisdom to others. I have continued friendships with a few of the people in my life that I have considered mentors to me but unfortunately, I have lost touch with some truly great people that I did not see as a mentor to me at the time but I do now. I try to take a closer look at all of my connections now and keep them in my life you never know who can make a difference in your life or conversely, who I myself, may be able to help!
Karin-
ReplyDeleteAfter considering your question about mentoring I have found that to some degree I try to find a mentor in the various positions that I am in. This pertains to jobs, especially when I worked as an apprentice. I have found that the guidance keeps me on track. I guess I view the situations as typically something someone has done before, so if I can learn from what worked for them, or from their mistakes, all the better.
I also agree with what Linsay said, at some point I hope that I have the experience that someone else finds valuable, and am able to pass some of it on as well.
In my book Ethical Issues in Adult Ed there are several different ethical questions discussed. One of the chapter deals with marketing, a topic I find that I am spending an unfortunate amount of time with in my present position. The questions raised relate to the duties we have to learners when promoting a program. What are the job prospects? This is probably the question I get most often. I found this article in the August 3 edition of the Loveland Reporter-Herald. Now it is a bit of a farce, but I think that it may give some indication to the mindset of students and what their expectations are as they progress through a program.
ReplyDeletehttp://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ODD_JOBLESS_GRAD_SUES?SITE=COLOV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-08-02-20-42-38
I hope the ling works! If not, the article is short so I just copied it below.
Jobless NYC woman sues college for $70K in tuition
NEW YORK (AP) -- A New York City woman who says she can't find a job is suing the college where she earned a bachelor's degree.
Trina Thompson filed a lawsuit last week against Monroe College in Bronx Supreme Court. The 27-year-old is seeking the $70,000 she spent on tuition.
Thompson says she's been unable to find gainful employment since she received her information technology degree in April.
She says the Bronx school's Office of Career Advancement hasn't provided her with the leads and career advice it promises.
Monroe College spokesman Gary Axelbank says Thompson's lawsuit is completely without merit.
The college insists it helps its graduates find jobs.
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Information from: New York Post, http://www.nypost.com
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ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteWow! Could you imagine all of the people right now who would be suing their colleges because they can’t find work! That is the most ridiculous thing that I have ever heard. It just goes to show that people won’t take responsibility for themselves; they just want to blame it on someone else. How ethical is that?
P.S. Can you recommend a good lawyer, I can’t find work! ;)
Re telling a student they are not cutting it...At my previous employer -- the court reporting school -- Voc Rehab sent us a hard-of-hearing student. He wore two hearing aids and sat directly in front of the teacher (me) in order to hear the dictation. He did an amazing job-- was very determined! -- until the speeds got to 140 wpm and above. All the little words (a, the, that, this, what, were, etc.) were hard for him to distinguish and caused him to fail numerous tests. He had to withdraw due to hand injuries, but he would never have made it to 225 wpm. It's amazing that Voc Rehab sent him to a CTE which required intense hearing abilities.
ReplyDeleteWe also had a lady whose first language was Japanese. She also made it to 140 and could not distinguish the inflected endings; she transferred to another school. I don't know her status today. On the other hand, we had two first-language Spanish-speaking students who graduated and, as far as I know, are working as court reporters today.
As teachers/admin, we don't really know who can make it and who can't -- everyone with reasonable abilities should be afforded the opportunity to prove themselves. So the question is: How do we handle these students during admissions? throughout the program?
The Daloz books reminds me of a saying: "Life is wavy." (That may not be verbatim.) I think of life as a noodle...hard and crunchy at times; compromising and pliable after you go through some heat; but always wavy.
ReplyDeleteSounds like Daloz's stages of development for women run along the same lines as WWK's stages, just different names.
We had a couple students who threatened a class action lawsuit because they could not graduate. The wanted their school loans paid off after several of them had taken tens of thousands in refunds. My understanding is that because the contact hours conformed to our catalog claims there was no cause for action. They eventually dropped the claim.
ReplyDeletei want my $ back! love it! there, entitlement rears its head again. how did this culture develop that way? hmmm...
ReplyDeletei am overwhelmed with all of this blogging and ramCT stuff. sorry guys. i'm sure all the books are great, but i'm fried.
Ethical Issues-
ReplyDeleteThe article I posted was again, kind of a farce. I can not believe that it would go anywhere. However I find that it is not uncommon for students to complain about some aspects of a course, especially when their grades are not all that good. Caffarella (p. 110) raiseed some important questions regarding the role of the teacher. Some are impartors of knowledge, some are facilitators. If we act as a facilitator, what are our ethical obligations regarding the learning requirements that are taking place? Also, should self directed learning take priority over specific, desired outcomes? (Caffarella, 1988 p 110) As the trends in education change, new ethical questions will arise.
One complaint I have about the book is that it is from 1988. It would be nice to see an updated version, though it is interesting to note how applicable most of the questions are.
John M
By the way Alyson, I would not spend that money yet!
ReplyDeleteJohn M
How does Vella's book relate to Adult Ed?
ReplyDeleteThe major tenet in this book is about dialogue and engagement of the learner. It is about the teacher as facilitator of learning, as opposed to master authority on knowledge. This is what we've been learning throughout our androgogy discussions.
Vella's 12 principles declare that learners must be able to assess how their learning is measured for themselves and that they must see the immediate benefits and/or applications of having this learning as it relates to their lives. She is a proponent of building emotional safety and relationships (classic adult ed). She speaks of praxis, which we have discussed as metacognition and reflection. Our courses in this program continue to pinpoint the need for reflection as a way for adult learners to make meaning.
Vella addresses the need for the facilitator to stimulate the cognitive, affective, and pyschomotor arenas for the learner (mind, emotion, and action). This is experiential ed 101 and is valuable to an adult learner. It helps address the multiple learning styles and allows learners to choose how to learn in a way that best suits their needs and styles. Merriam, et al discussed empowerment and Vella might consider this defining the roles b/t learner and facilitator, where the learner is given the role of educating him or herself and the facilitator guides. Vella's principles of teamwork are classic adult ed and again, empowering. Finally, adult ed seems to focus less on covering a list of points and more about ensuring the adult learners are provided value. Vella might call this "engagement". And accountability is giving the adult learners ways that they can determine how they know something...have they learned it? This again, is classic adult ed b/c it empowers the learner to assess and define the learning and compare it to his or her own set goals and past experiences.
The End.
I have found the blog/discussion very interesting. I can't say how I will find the time to read all of these books, so the condensed discussion has been valuable. I have also posted and additional summary for Ethical Issues in Adult Education in RamCT.
ReplyDeleteJohn M
RE: Vella and "Learning to Listen. Learning to Teach. The Power of Dialogue in Educating Adults"
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree with Vella that learning, thinking, and teaching are holistic pursuits. It is my humanist philosophy shining through. Did she go into detail about her teaching philosophy of quantum thinking?
I ask this question because of the idea that once we observe something, the thing being observed is no longer in its natural state. How do you think this applies to teaching? How do we know we impact something by looking at it when you can’t look at something without looking? Does this mean that we, ourselves, create our own reality? I have such a headache!
John - all though not 'real' I find the article very appropriate. I often receive calls from potential students asking "what can I do with your degree when I finish?" and "what type of job can I get". I will spend some time dialoging with the students and try illustrate to them it depends on what they want to do, how they apply themselves, and the connections that they make. I know that some programs do market their job placement rate - that still does not guarantee a job for every student : )
ReplyDeleteThis ties into our discussion on Thursday about milelnials.
Karen
Some of the information shared in Learning to Listen, Learning to Teach parallels with the article that Kay wrote on Holistic Education.
ReplyDeleteWe have gained so much knowledge over the years about 'what works' in teaching and learning. Yet, so often we do not see the skills and techniques applied in the learning environment.
Perhaps this is something that we need to discuss when we talk about the ethics of teaching : )
Karen